Episode 5

Published on:

8th Jun 2022

CultureRoad™ Podcast - Episode 5: Next Generation EDI

In today’s episode, CultureRoad™ creator and podcast host DeEtta Jones chats with DeEtta Jones and Associates colleagues and fellow EDI practitioners, Jayla Hodge and Lexi Seals-Johnson, about the shifts in the EDI industry over the years and what it looks like for companies and practitioners to lead effectively in this space in the current era. 

This episode covers:

  • [7:45] - Next Generation Leadership and Next Generation EDI
  • [11:45] - The evolution of the EDI industry over the years
  • [18:09] - DEI vs. EDI
  • [24:17] - Integrating EDI into company culture
  • [39:30] - EDI: Statistics, Pain Points, and Opportunities
  • [42:17] - Brave Spaces & The Metaverse
  • [48:05] - Leveraging The Metaverse for soft skills development
  • [57:22] - Qualities and characteristics of Next Generation Leaders and Opportunities

Key quotes:

  • “Equity is always going to a place where at a structural and systemic level, we can look around and say on a day-to-day basis, where's this system, this structure, actually built based on an equitable model?” -DeEtta Jones
  • “People in the '80s were talking about that and people in the early 2000s were trying to implement something like that. And so I think we could easily get lost in this loop of really thinking that these ideas and practices are new, but they're not. So the real base of transformation, you have to have a good understanding.” -Jayla Hodge
  • “Equity, diversity, and inclusion has shifted so significantly.” -DeEtta Jones, 12:45
  • “You have to know where we’ve been to have a good idea of where we’re going.” -Jayla Hodge, 14:31
  • “People in the '80s were talking about that and people in the early 2000s were trying to implement something like that. And so I think we could easily get lost in this loop of really thinking that these ideas and practices are new, but they're not. So the real base of transformation, you have to have a good understanding.” -Jayla Hodge, 15:30
  • “Diversity has been used and not always had a shared interpretation or not had kind of satisfying outcomes. So people automatically have a thing related to diversity itself.” -DeEtta Jones, 19:08
  • “Diversifying your portfolio, diversifying your suppliers, putting equity in the basis and foundation of your organization. That’s basic business…having the full picture and having equitable practices and structure at every level that’s going to make you money.”  -Lexi Seals-Johnson, 24:38
  • “The whole structure of EDI is that there’s no structure it’s fully moving and growing things change.” -Lexi Seals-Johnson, 27:16
  • “65% of managers have told us that they oftentimes feel kind of uncomfortable speaking up about equity, diversity, and inclusion.” -DeEtta Jones, 40:10
  • “We’ve been meta for a while.” -Jayla Hodge, 43:30
  • “And I think it gives you a voice where you wouldn't normally necessarily in the real world. In the metaverse it's like I can have the same voice as the white CEO, right?” - Lexi Seals-Johnson, 46:50
  • “This other more purest form that’s also simultaneously being pursued and built out right now that’s really about creating a model that is purely decentralized. That really reflects the kind of shared and equitable access that we want in the world and creating the space for that to exist.” -DeEtta Jones, 51:45

This episode is brought to you by:

CultureRoad™, a live and on-demand digital learning solution powered by DeEtta Jones and Associates. CultureRoad™ is an easy-to-use subscription, delivering fresh content monthly and access to experts, to help professionals at all levels thrive in the contemporary workplace. Stay up-to-date with best practices on DEI, and acquire the necessary skills and tools to effectively lead, manage, and influence others. Get connected with this community of practice to further your professional development at cultureroad.com. 

About the Host:

DeEtta Jones is a 32-year industry veteran, transformational leadership expert, and owner of DeEtta Jones and Associates, the go-to management training and strategic consulting firm for some of the world’s leading companies and institutions. Visit deetajones.com for more information.  

Connect with DeEtta:

  • Instagram - @deetta_jones_, @deetta.jones.associates 
  • Facebook - DeEtta Jones and Associates
  • YouTube - DeEtta Jones and Associates
  • Website - deettajones.com

Connect with Jayla:

Connect with Lexi:

Episode 6 Preview:

In the next episode, CultureRoad™ creator and podcast host DeEtta Jones dialogues with DeEtta Jones and Associates colleagues Jayla Hodge, Media Marketing Specialist, and Lexi Seals-Johnson, Project Coordinator, to reflect on and unpack the differences between equity, diversity, and inclusion, then and now.


- Hi, I'm DeEtta.

Welcome to the "CultureRoad Podcast."

This is episode number five,

and we are going to be talking about

next generation equity, diversity and inclusion.

Really, really cool ideas

as far as not just how shifts have happened over time,

but also where we're going and things

that you should be paying attention to.

And we are also coming from Redland Koi Garden

in Miami, Florida.

So hopefully you'll be able to get some of that cool vibe

along the way.

So join us, stick around,

we're gonna have a really great time.

Hi everyone, welcome, episode five "CultureRoad Podcast."

I'm so happy you're here, I'm DeEtta Jones.

Today, we're gonnatalk aboutt next generation

equity, diversity and inclusion

and I'm super excited becausenothing sings next generation

like my colleagues who arenext generation leaders,

people with whom I work every single day,

and we have really importantkind of philosophical

and practical conversations

about what does equity diversitylook now and in the future.

And how does that lookdifferently across cultures

and across generationsand across identities.

And so we're gonna have somereally good conversation today.

So with that in mind,

I also wanna say that we arein a beautiful Koi Garden,

Redland Koi Garden in Miami.

And so if along the wayyou hear some exotic birds

or a rooster or anything else

that is not part of our conversation,

just know that it's part ofthe vibe we're going for.

I hope you enjoy being in this beautiful

sanctuary space with us.

All right, with that said,

I am going to turn now to Lexi and Jayla.

Thank you so, so much for being here.

You are both people withwhom I work every single day.

Both of you have reallyamazing kind of technical

and functional skills and things

that you bring to our work

every single day at DeEttaJones and Associates.

But the other thing that I really love

about working with you both

is that you also bring not only experience

related to equity, diversity and inclusion

as practitioners and professionals,

but also your lived experiencesand your identities really

have made this, somethingthat is very personal for you.

So we'd love to invite youto each introduce yourself

and maybe tell a little bit more about

not just the work that you do,

but also a little bit aboutwhat it is that you bring

to the work of equity,diversity and inclusion, okay?

All right, Lexi, you start us.- Yeah, let's go.

Okay, so I, Lexi Seals-Johnson,

I grew up in, what could be described

as the least diverse place,very rural small town, Utah,

which was a treat foreveryone involved. (laughing)

I have a black dad and a white mom.

So growing up, I was theblack family in town.

Diversity was kind of spokenabout, but not really.

And then I went to college andI was all of a sudden thrown

into this space of higher education,

which is always very diversity focused

but then I went tobusiness school, (chuckles)

which was the complete opposite of that.

And so I tried reallyhard to get fully involved

in the diversity there andbringing about different voices,

which you don't really see inbusiness, especially in Utah,

where tech is the background.

- Yep.

- So I stayed in highered, worked in that space

for a while, and then started at DJA

where I'm now the Project Coordinator.

For me, just being in a spacewith diversity practitioners

and learning about others everyday is very exciting for me.

And just seeing,

even just from when Ijoined this space to now

is completely different.

- Yeah.

- The technology of it,

the classes that theyeven offer when I started,

they offer managing diversity classes

or when I took it as thebusiness case for diversity

whereas now it's the full enmeshment

of equity in the workplace.

So it's been a really cool journey so far.

I love working for DJA

and getting to work with you all every day

and just sort of beingthe innovator and leader

in this space has been really fun for me.

- [DeEtta] Love it.

- Yeah. (chuckles)- Love it, love it, love it.

I'm gonna ask more but we'llkeep on, thank you, thank you.

All right, go for it.

- Hi, I'm Jayla Hodge and my background,

it's kinda long,

I realized I was EDI practitioner,diversity practitioner,

before I even knew what that was.

I just feel it's kindof been there all along

even as a child, I was advocating.

But I went to Colorado State University.

I grew up in Denver, Colorado,

and growing up between thereand Chicago and Michigan.

And in Chicago and Michiganit's a very diverse population.

I was in that world

and then moving to Denver, Colorado

it's not the same.

It's not the same, not nearly as diverse.

So that was a really bigkind of wake up call for me.

And so learning how to navigate

those two different spaces

and seeing the disparitiesearly on shaped a lot.

So the way I went to school,

I got hyper involved ina lot of organizations

and in college, so United Women of Color,

I studied journalism, Ialso studied business.

So I understand what you feelabout the business schools.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, there's rarely alot of diversity there.

And then just kind of aftergraduating moved into working

for local government and municipalities

and being hyper involvedin community engagement.

So it's just been aninteresting journey a lot

along the ways I've studiedpolicy, I've written articles.

I was an opinion editor at one point

and I covered the race

and they would call it TheRace Beat where I reported

and wrote opinions on things

that are happening inmy community and campus.

So like you say, all along the path,

this has kind of been my world.

- Yeah.

- And now with DJA, Iwork as a consultant,

but also I'm a media specialist.

So I create marketing contentand do a lot of designing

and just figuring out the way

that we organically show up online.

- Yeah, nice.

And you and I spend alot of time talking about

conceptually and philosophically,

where is it that we shouldbe paying attention?

Where should our voice be?

What are some of the developmentsthat are really important

to pay attention to?

- [Jayla] Yeah.

- So really excited to get into that.

The other thing that Ireally love about this,

especially related to thetopic of next generation

leadership and equity,diversity and inclusion,

it's been something that'sbeen a passion of mine,

my entire career, my entire life.

So I started doing work

as a diversity and inclusion practitioner.

Literally when I was a teenager,

even before I knew it was a career path,

it was just the passion and the activism

that I was following.

And then very, very early in my life,

I was put into verysignificant leadership roles.

When I was 25 years old

I had a very significant officeas the head of human rights

at the city of Fort Collins.

And one of my mentors, Alma

ended up being a personwho really guided me

and helped me develop my own voice,

but also was the person who introduced us.

- Yeah.

- And then said, you know what?

I remember Alma reachingout to me and saying,

I met someone who reminds me a lot of you

20 or 30 years ago, Iwanna make an introduction.

And I feel that's also a huge opportunity

when we think aboutnext generation anything

is to also think about the opportunity

for always creatingspaces, for new voices,

always looking for wisdomthat lives across generations

and not making assumptionsabout where the really powerful

wise experiences and contributionsare going to come from.

So I've always tried to really model that,

but also I model it becauseI'm a beneficiary of it.

So I actually really believe in it a lot.

- Yeah, and I think that speaks too,

to kind of the baton race, that's like EDI

and I'm just gonnashare this story quickly

'cause I went to thesame college university

that DeEtta did

and I joined a lot of thesimilar organizations,

including student government

and I was in a space that was

pretty much all white,predominantly male too.

And I had heard, and thisis years and years later,

but I joined-

- Years and years. (laughing)

- I literally joined thisorganization with a fire,

like, okay, let's get somebills passed, let's do this.

And people would tell me hereand there, like, oh yeah,

there was another student like this.

I heard about DeEttabefore I knew who DeEtta

was from multiple people

and I didn't realize ituntil after I met you.

And I'm like,

she was telling me about someof the work that she did.

I was like, wow, I'vebeen hearing stories.

And some of the bills andworks that she had started

years and years priorwere some of the bills

that we used to bake new ones.

It was the precedents that had been set.

So it's interesting to see.

And then I went and workedfor the city of Fort Collins

afterwards where DeEtta also had worked

and then I met Alma and I could see

where she made that comparison.

- Yeah, I love it.

And it's so cool.

First of all, it just warms my heart

to know that things that I was doing

as a student activistactually had some impact.

Because I cared so much andI was so passionate about it,

but sometimes you don't knowif young people's voices

are actually going to beheard or taken seriously.

And if they're actually goingto have institutional impact,

if they're gonna stick around and actually

be taken seriously over time.

But to know that some of those things

that were really, really important

at the time also allowed forpeople, generations after me.

And then hopefully you did the same thing

and so that to me is nextgeneration leadership.

It's next generationequity, diversity inclusion.

How do we create morespaces for more voices

and also more potential for impact

that's not as closedoff and as exclusionary

as it has been in the past.

- And it's the idea too,

that that impact is long lasting

and it spread out over years

and maybe after you immediately graduated,

you couldn't see how bigof an impact it would be.

But now looking back, we're like, yeah,

because you started here,

led to me being able toenter that organization,

do the work that I did.

And then maybe, hopefullysomeone will come to me

and be like, I heard about you in SCSU.

- That's. Right.- I hope. (laughing)

- I'll to give them a chance,like you gave me word.

- That's right, that's the work.

- It's super interesting because I wanted

to get into the EDI world forever.

So when I graduated college,

I did all of theseinformational interviews

just to see how people got into it.

And everyone was like, I have no idea.

I don't know how you getyour foot in the door.

When they graduated college,

there wasn't ed consultants

it was individual practitioners.

And so when I fell upon DJA, I was like,

where is this coming from?

But there's not a clear path to get there

as there as much as there is now.

But I talked to so many people

and most of them were like, well,

I was like, the black womanin HR, so in now I'm here.

Or I started in highered and then came here,

but none of them went into the workforce

looking for this type of space.

So it's very interesting.

- So that's the other thingthat I think is really cool

that you bring up is that,equity, diversity and inclusion

has shifted so significantly.

I mean, that was absolutely my experience

that I didn't even go out

to set out to be an EDI practitioner.

I saw myself as an activist

and I was just kind of doing that work.

And then over time I startedtransitioning into consulting,

but I didn't really have anidea about what my career path

would be because therewasn't a career path.

It was just me passionatelykind of following opportunities.

And when doors opened, I wouldgo ahead and explore them,

but there wasn't a real clear career path.

And now there's so manyopportunities for certifications

and professional development and PhDs

or areas of focus, concentration,and an MBA program.

So there's so many more robust ways,

but that also means is thatthere's a lot of people

out there saying I do EDI.

And that's also a placewhere, I don't know.

I don't know if I havemixed feelings about that.

I also feel just becauseyou're the black woman in HR

doesn't necessarily mean that you

have deep into the poolexpertise on kind of dismantling

and or reconstructing systems

that are going to make them more equitable

without actually having

some pretty significant understanding

of some of the foundationalthings that some people

who have been in this work for a long time

have invested in. Itdoesn't have to just be

you've invested in it over a long time.

I'm not trying to say itjust has to be age related,

but really also understanding things

like organizational development

or really understanding someof the behavioral sciences

and really having a solid understanding

of kind of sociological and neurological

kind of concepts that will allow

for a really solid foundation.

And I feel those are some of the shifts

that are happening rightnow and more and more people

are finding themselves interested

in being a practitioner ora consultant in this space.

- Yeah.

- I agree, and I think that you touched

on something pretty important.

You have to know where we've been

to have a good idea of where we're going.

And there's been so manypeople that have been in this,

the EDI practitioners in the world

of diversity, this industrythat have done a lot of work,

but they've also tried a lot of things.

And so you have a better understanding

of what actually changes a system

versus repeating the exactsame steps and moves.

And I think that's pretty important

and that's something that gets lost.

Maybe nowadays, there'sa lot of enthusiasm

of people entering our industry.

And that's great, thatmeans there's passion there.

But I think that there'sa false connotation

of what has been done in the past

and all the work peoplehave put in before us.

- Yeah.

- And so now I when I look,

here, some of the thingspeople are saying,

I'm like, oh, I don't thinkthey have an understanding

that that was tried.

People in the '80s were talking about that

and people in the early:

try to implement something like that.

And so I think we couldeasily get lost in this loop

of really thinking that theseideas and practices are new,

but they're not.

So the real base of transformation,

you have to have a good understanding.

- Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

I think what you're sayingis actually making the case

for not just cross-generational,

but also all the different voices

really being in this space together.

The other thing that'sreally different now

about equity, diversity andinclusion is that it's global.

And so, as a practitioner,

when I was early in my career,

I spent so much of my timeresearching and studying

and even practicing in the United States.

And in the United States,

in communities that wereparticularly lacking diversity

or that were reallywrestling with specific areas

where they needed to make sure

that there's more equitable access,

where we were trying topass policies and laws

to make sure that hate crimelegislation was in place,

those sorts of things.

But now the kinds of peoplethat we interact with

are literally across the globe

and you know that we spend all of our time

talking to people whoare in Brazil and in-

- New Zealand.

- New Zealand and Australiaand China and Hong Kong.

And it's wonderful,

but we also are thinkingof kind of next generation

equity, diversity and inclusionis so much more than local.

It's absolutely globaland it's incredibly local.

It's so incredibly localthat we also really

have the ability to understand the nuances

associated with the needs

and experiences ofparticular macro cultures

and then micro cultures

and how that plays out differently

in different parts ofthe world and over time.

- Right, I think there's

that constant dichotomy of understanding,

especially in the EDI industry,

that it has to be a globalview because of social media

and these global companiesthat are all over

and with the pandemic,

people are working from homeanywhere you can work anywhere.

And also understanding thatit is still very much local

because from where I grew up,

it's the base level of diversity,

that local level there or in Fort Collins

is still the very bottom wherework still needs to be done.

Whereas we're also workingwith these global companies

where they have that foundation,

they have the basis and now it's time

to create that global view.

- [DeEtta] Yeah.

- And so I think that there's constantly

that space where there's need for both,

but I don't think everyonehas the full picture of that.

- [DeEtta] Yeah.

- I agree and I thinkthat's really important

that we have now started

with, instead of diversityequity, inclusion,

it's equity, diversity, inclusion,

because that takes into account,

the level of where you're starting.

So like you said, that foundation,

a lot of places are just like,

well, how do we get diversity?

We don't have it here,this needs to start.

But we now know that when you're looking

at these big macro cultures,

you have to adjust it like, okay,

well there is diversity here,

but how can we make iteither more inclusive?

Or we start looking at thingsthrough a lens of equity.

- Right, that's been a huge question.

Sometimes it totally blowsmy mind, I'll give a speech

and the number onequestion that comes up is-

- What do you call it?

- Is it DDI or EDI or EDISJ, or belonging.

And I'm like, really?

And then I realize whatyou name, I'm a mother,

I know what you name, somethingis ridiculously important.

A name has a tremendous amount of meaning.

But it's also really interesting

because there are so many people

who have kind of a badtaste in their mouth

around the word diversity.

Diversity has been used

and not always had a shared interpretation

or not had kind of satisfying outcomes.

So people automaticallyhave kind of a thing

related to diversity itself,

but also in the absence of having

a real obvious starting point,

as far as diversifyingfrom a representational

point of view,

how is it that we can actuallymake meaningful substantive

and the right level?

That system's level changeand that's where equity lives.

And so, I always tell people,

I've always said equity,diversity, and inclusion.

And sometimes when we work with clients,

they already have the name ofthe initiative or the program

that they're doing.

And so we of course would honor

whatever their preferences are,

but for us, equity isabsolutely foundational.

Equity is always going toplace where at a structural

and systemic level,

we can look around andsay on a day to day basis,

where's this system, thisstructure actually built

based on an equitable model?

If not, how is it that we find the places

or the opportunities todisrupt, to interrogate,

to make adjustments atthat systemic level?

And then from there,

we can continue to do some of the other

really important work relatedto diversity and inclusion,

but not skipping over nor downplaying

the ridiculously importantand heavy lifting work

associated with equity.

- Right, and I think that's something

that's so interesting is sometimes we go

into these strategy clientsand they're expecting us

to hold a facilitationwhere people can talk

about microaggressionsthey've seen in the workforce.

And then they're shockedwhere we're like, okay,

what's your pay structure.

And they're like, that'snot what we hired you for.

And we're like, no,

that's exactly what you hired us for

because if we can't start there,

then that's a very foundational base.

If you wanna have an equitable workforce,

we have to talk about pay structure.

We have to talk about days off.

We have to talk about parental leave.

it's not anymore just like,

oh, let's have a single lunch, which is-

- No longer just days on the calendar.

- Yeah, yeah, we can't just talk about

like King Junior day.

It's like a full picture, which is still,

I think exactly what nextgeneration leadership

or next generation EDI is,

is we're in that space wherethat full shift is happening.

- Yeah. Yeah.

It's exciting too.

But it's still something thatpeople are bringing into focus

because so many peoplewho are in the workforce,

there's a lot of newerand younger professionals,

which is really exciting who coming in

without all those kindof old mental models

about what it can and should look like.

But there's also a lot of people,

especially people in positional authority

who have D and I not even the E involved.

And they have very specificand limited mental models

about what's included.

And their focus has beenalmost wholly on representation

for the vast majority of their careers.

It's the heavy emphasis on the diversity

and diversity equals representation,

it's a like numbers game.

And really D and I,

if we were gonna have a from two

is moving from thingsthat are just focused

on kind of representation orprogrammatic sorts of things,

to things that were thingsthat are grassroots only

where people who are at the front lines

of whatever the organization is,

are doing all the heavy lifting,all on a volunteer basis.

They're not getting paid for the labor.

They're not getting recognized.

It's not part of a performance evaluation.

It's not part of an advancement plan.

Their voices are often underrepresented

or under heard or valued.

The decision making authoritydoesn't sit with them.

All of those are places that D and I

has traditionally kind of set.

And it's also been pretty heavily focused

on the HR side of the house,

not to diminish the HR side of the house

but that's not the placewhere a lot of the decisions

are made about like where toallocate business resources.

And so now that shift, ifwe were gonna go to the two,

when the more contemporary model,

the equity, diversityand inclusion focused

is much more holistic and integrated,

and it's much more about,at the system level,

How is it that we think about

how all of the work thatwe do as an organization,

everything that we do

is really about equity,diversity and inclusion

in ways that are much more integral.

And they absolutely includesome of the HR sorts of things

like talent management and hiring

and recruitment and retention,

but they also have to dowith those really core things

like equity and the salary basis.

- Right.

- But they also have to do with things

like impacting your industry

or impacting your communityor supplier diversity,

or how it is that you're taking things

like your employee resourcegroups and reconstituting them

so that people who are participating

in your organization's, equity, diversity,

and inclusion goals,

are being seen as helpingto drive something

that is strategic

and also there's appropriateresourcing and support

that's disseminatedthroughout the organization,

not just with a few peoplewho have been the passionate,

few who have been carryingthe weight for so long.

- Yeah, and I think this is something

that's also interesting is

especially we see it now,

but is CEOs or C-suitefolks are like, okay,

well, diversity is costing me money.

Like focusing on EDI is costing me money.

And that's another big switchin next generation leadership.

And it's like, no, thatwill make you money.

- [DeEtta] Yes.

- Diversifying your portfolio,

diversifying your suppliers,

putting equity in the basis

and foundation of your organization-

- [DeEtta] Yes.

- That's basic business, right?

Is like having a full pictureand having equitable practices

and structures at every level,that's gonna make you money.

- That's absolutely normal.

- How I'm picturing this too is like

the more old antiquated versionand the checkbox version,

is you have a body already

and you're trying to add parts

you're trying to strengthen it

after it's already a fully built body,

but the model we'removing into now is like,

we're trying to put this into DNA.

We're trying to grow it from a big-

- [Lexi] Okay, Jayla.

- I know, I gotta paint the picture.

- She starts putting it into the DNA.

- Yeah, we're putting it into the DNA.

And for a lot of people that scary,

especially if you already have,

again, that body's beenbuilt, it's been functioning

it's been working and we'rekind of coming in and saying,

let's start building a new one,

let's start building the DNA now.

And it costs money.

And that's a lot of people,it's like a big difference,

'cause I think they're usedto maybe not throwing in,

are investing as fully into it,

but the results muchmore worth it when you do

the stronger body.

- Yeah.

- But the thing thatyou said, I love that.

I think that's part of theopportunity right now too,

is to help peopleunderstand that that body,

that organization, that people have said

it's been working just fine,

is no longer working just fine.

There is no organization that right now,

after all that we've been through

for the last couple ofyears can say, oh yeah,

we're working just fine.

- We're good.

- Everyone is going through something.

Everyone has a disrupted workforce.

Everyone is dealing withkind of the implications

of the great resignationof hybrid working models

of the systemic kind of interventions

that are happening acrossevery single industry.

These massive boycots andcallouts at industry levels

saying, we're not gonna take this anymore

because we have lack of representation

at the C-suite levels or companies where

their boards of are saying,you have absolute kind of,

one year to get your ducks in a row.

We wanna see your supplier

diversity numbers change significantly.

We wanna see your C-suitelevel change significantly.

People are really being held accountable

at different levels now.

And so just strengthening those muscles

that may have been built before

is not only going to be enough.

And that's the opportunitynow people to understand

it may be sometimes for somekind of upgrading your parts.

You might need a couple bionic questions.

It might be time to upgrade those parts.

- And I think too, it'slike, even than that

it's a like moving andgrowing thing, right?

- Yeah.

- That's the whole structureof EDI is there's no structure,

it's fully moving andgrowing and things change.

- [DeEtta] Yes.

- I'm thinking of the Mosaic diversity

which is very in the weeds,

but there's so many parts to that.

I don't know, the '60s,

it's like there's black andwhite, there's diversity.

And then it's like, okay,there's men and women.

And there's gay and straight.

And now there's a full view,

a picture of what that looks like.

- You might need to edit it

and put the Mosaic diversity on screen.

- [DeEtta] Right, right, right.

- Yeah.

- And that's at the individual level.

And then you scaffold itup and you start thinking

about at the organizational level

and some of the reallycomprehensive forward thinking work

that's being done at thestrategy level for organizations

that are even enterprisewidestrategy levels

for global corporations that are saying,

how is it that we're going to make sure

that we have a comprehensive strategy

where equity, diversity and inclusion

lives in all of the work streams,

everything from our technology to the way

that we do our industryrewards and recognition

to the way that we think

about out employee benefits

and all of those sorts of things.

So it's really comprehensive.

And it's not just abouta training here or-

- [Lexi] A checkbox there, yeah.

- Exactly.

We got a couple of people in those slots

and therefore we now havemet our quota expectation.

It's a much more comprehensiveand strategic view.

And so it's really interesting

to think about at the individuallevels all the way up.

The way that I often think about it

is like strategy, structure and culture.

That there's reallyimportant strategy work

that's being done, that isabsolutely enterprise wide.

And that is allowing organizations,

even if they're globalcorporations to say,

where is it that we're trying to go?

And how do we make surethat we're actually infusing

our values into our DNA

and into our work streamsand also distributing

the expectations for advancement to people

other than the black orbrown folks or the women

who have been kind ofcarrying the workload,

but instead, traditionally,

but instead all managers, all leaders,

all CSU folks, all have expectations,

and they know exactly what that looks like

behaviorally and demonstrably in a way

that allows them to meettheir performance goals.

- Yeah, and I think to go back to it

is we're trying to create a space

where you no longer haveto make these decisions

in reaction to a call outor in reaction to a protest.

When they're alreadyembedded within your system,

then you don't have to spend money

or have that reactionaryresponse to being called out

or having a walkout, whenthat happens, it's too late.

- [DeEtta] Right, right, right, right.

- It's too late, so you haveto start from the beginning.

And I think that's what you said earlier

is people are scaredto make that decision,

but in the long run,

it just saves so muchtime and energy and money.

And you don't have to react to something

and start from the beginning

where you're in a fire already.

- And that also indicatesthe level of care,

you should care about thesethings before they become

an immediate problem to a business model.

And I think we're starting to see that.

And that's really exciting,but yeah, you're right

it has to be at theintersection of everything.

And you often hear people,

I think there's a belieflike, well, that's HR,

well, that's this department,well, that's this committees.

But when you have everyone atall parts of an organization,

again, at the DNA of things,

it takes the workloadoff of just one group

or one person or one job title.

- [Lexi] Of that black woman in HR.

- Yeah, exactly.

- It's everybody's problem.

It's not just the blackwoman in HRs problem.

- But it's also everybody's opportunity.

- Absolutely.- Opportunity.

- I actually think,

it's gonna be hard tobe a class organization

without doing this.

It's just obsolete.

It's very kind of antiquatedthinking to imagine

that there's any possibility

of being a world-class organization

that attracts world class talent

without having really understood

and have really sophisticated models

for integrating equity,diverse and inclusion

and really thinking about,how do we build equity,

diversity and inclusionupstream in our work

so that we're not just preventing.

'Cause I agree with you, 100%

preventative is ridiculously important,

but also having it as aproposition, a differentiator.

Let me tell you what additionalvalue we bring to you,

to your clients, to our communities

because of not just thediverse representation

of our workforce,

but also some of the sophisticated tools

that we use for accomplishing our work.

- Yeah, that's very true.

I agree and I think thatto think about this way,

we even talked about it in our backgrounds

that this has been a part of our lives,

where our priorities havebeen starting way back,

even in school.

So now we have a lot ofpeople entering the workforce.

That's like, I've been on this,

I've been talking about this,I have cared about this.

What is your company doing with this?

What is your organization doing with this?

And we are-

- [DeEtta] Yes.

- Up to speed with the language.

And so you wanna attract that.

All those people, but ifyou go to an organization

and I'm like, this isn't in the DNA

I'm not gonna want to be there,

but that represents a generation

and that's not gonna be there.

- Literally, and I thinkthat's something also,

that's interesting as working in higher ed

and working for MBA programsand top talent, even in tech

my students were always lookingfor equitable organizations.

- [DeEtta] Exactly.

- It's not somethingthat you can just stick

on your website in the back row anymore.

It's like the first questionyou're going to ask.

When I was interviewing or looking at,

I don't even apply theorganizations who don't have it

fully embedded into their job posting.

People aren't gonnaapply even as a supplier,

when we are lookingfor outside consultants

to bring into DJA,that's what we look for.

We won't even try.

And it's not just a coloron your, who are we page

it's on every aspect orstructure of the business

is we're looking for diversity

within the supplier andwithin your employer.

- In the system, you're right.

It's super important toalso think about that

in addition to the strategy stuff

we kind of break it down tothe structure and culture.

How is it that thestructure that is in place

to support the strategy is being, again,

this is where the interrogation is living.

The interrogation of the structures

that are getting in theway and, or enabling

the advancement of your strategy.

And then at the cultural level,

what are the ways in which

we're kind of investing in our culture?

And I feel that's theplace where traditionally

we've spent more time related to D and I-

- [Lexi] Absolutely.

- And we've said, it's allcultural, it's all internal.

But that's not at all howwe at DJA approach it.

The internal culture isridiculously important,

but all of them touch each other

culture and structure and strategy,

all connect to each other.

And the culture of theorganization is really important,

but it's always, always,always important for us

to be like,

why do we even have this company?

What are we in service of?

And what are we in service of,

is related to our strategy and the vision

and the aspiration that we have.

And so making sure that we bring

that same kind of comprehensive alignment

to the way that we approachequity, diversity and inclusion,

and this next generationworld is gonna be so important

where people understandyou can't do have potlucks

and sing Mayo celebrations or whatever,

Women's History Month in isolation

and not also be workingon structural innovations

and also making sure that your strategy

is driving you towards moreand more equitable practices.

- [Jayla] Absolutely.

- Yeah, and I think it comesdown to, I'm a queer woman.

I see all the time the queer community

is the bane of the existence is in June.

- Yes.

- Folks adding a rainbow to their logo.

- Yes.

- And then it's like, okay, well

what are you doing the rest of the month?

Anytime, what are youdoing in your organization?

What are you giving backto the queer community?

And I think that's where thestructures come in as well

is it's not just internal,

it's fully, what are youcontributing to the world

at a global level?

What are you givingback to that community?

How are you educating yourself?

And so, yeah, I totally agree with.

It just can't be internallyand culture-based.

It has to be a full wayof life for the company.

- A full way of life, yeah.

Which also is going tolead us to really thinking

about what are the skill setsnecessary at personal levels.

So the strategy levelorganizations need to be thinking

about what does this meanfor us as we pursue, create,

and in advance of reallysophisticated contemporary model

for what equity,diversity inclusion lives,

but at individual practitioner levels,

when we're thinkingabout next generational

equity, diversity inclusion,and next generation leaders,

that means that we're gonnahave to really think about

what are our skill sets.

People like me, in my age group,

we came up with very specific models

of what leadership looked like.

And all of them werefrom a guy named Peter.

Peter worked from, Peter saying this,

some white guy with a PhD after his name,

all of them ridiculously smart

I absolutely honor all of that work.

But I also realized thereweren't people who looked me

in those books,

there weren't people who looked me

or sounded me standing on those stages.

There wasn't a careerpath that was obvious

for someone me to figure out.

I figured it out,

but I also now realizethat the next opportunity

is to give people like me aspace to see people like me

as possibly creating and opening doors

that don't have to necessarilybe the same career path,

but it have to do with being able

to have positional authority,being able to have influence,

being able to have impact.

And that skillset is going to be different

than what some of us learnedthrough some of those books

that came out related to management

and leadership effectiveness30 or 40 years ago.

So we're gonna have to really continue

to re conceptualize that,

but more importantly, we'regonna have to practice it.

And it's hard for peoplewho have been really skilled

and have had a lot ofadvancements in their careers,

to say, oh my goodness, Ihave to start learning again.

Because we assume that our skillset

is already really sophisticated.

And so now to have to slowdown and say, you know what,

I have to really investin my own ongoing learning

and it's not gonna be taking a bias course

for taking a microaggressions course.

I'm gonna actually haveto do this over time.

And as part of an ongoingdevelopmental plan.

That's gonna be the goal, that's us.

- I think that's the partthat sometimes scares people.

They're like, well,I've already done this.

When is enough enough?

And if this is a forever transformation

and you just keep gettingbetter and better.

And it takes a true commitment to that.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- Yeah.

- Folks, we're gonna take a quick break.

We're gonna hear from our sponsors

and we're gonna come back.

'Cause what I'd really to talk about

are some of the super cool new things

that have to do with technology

and ways in which we're reallystarting to explore different

dimensions of equity,diversity, and inclusion

that are going to be excitingfor us to keep our eye on.

- [Lexi] Perfect. (chuckles)

- Okay, welcome back.

All right, so we were justhaving a great conversation

about all sorts of thingsrelated to next generation

equity, diversity and inclusion.

And now I'm wanna shifta little bit to maybe

starting off with some of the pain points,

but then really going tosome of the opportunities

and some of the thingsthat are really exciting

and that way we wanna kindof explore a little bit.

So people who are thinking more about

the way equity, diversity,and the inclusion has been,

or what they've been doingin their organizations,

they can maybe kind ofstart reconceptualizing

and thinking about some of the things

that are newer and really exciting

and opportunities for us going forward.

So one of the things that I know,

because we talk topeople who are managers,

we talk to people who areindividual contributors

about the relationshipwith their managers.

We talk to executives all the time

and especially over thelaw last couple of years,

we've asked so manyhundreds of people tell us

about some of the thingsthat you are nervous about.

And some of the places where you have gaps

or additional kind of developmental needs,

65% of managers have toldus that they oftentimes feel

kind of uncomfortable speaking up

related to equity,diversity, and inclusion,

because they're a worried that their words

might be perceived as biased

that they may be in kind ofimpacting people differently

than their intentions.

70% of people said that they've actually

held back and are unwillingto speak up in meetings

or in public spaces,

even if they have a strong opinion,

even if they wanna advocateon behalf of others,

they're really concerned about

whether or not they're the right voice,

whether or not it's appropriate for them

to actually be the spokesperson.

And up to 80% of people who we've talk to

have actually said that they really worry

about whether or not they feel confident

and have the skillsassociated with just talking

about things that arekind of social issues

that are coming up.

Everything from Black Lives Matter

to some of the hate crimesthat are been happening

against people who are Asian

against some of violence against women

that's been happening inCanada and sometimes in India

and really feeling uncomfortable,

initiating those conversations

because they're not exactly sure how,

or if the people on the other side

of potentially those conversations

are gonna be welcome recipients.

So to me, 65, 70, and 80%,

those are huge percentagesof people who are saying,

we just don't feel confidentthat we know how to do it,

but we really care.

And so part of ouropportunity, not just at DJA,

but just as practitioners,

as people who wanna live in amore just and equitable world

is to create spaces for peopleto have kind of safer space,

to explore and develop those skills,

but all so to reallythink about practical ways

that people can beequipped to learn skills

that might be different

than those that they've been practicing.

And so this is whereI wanna transition to.

So with all that said,

'cause I don't wanna seem it's hopeless,

I wanna talk about the metaverse.

I wanna talk about the metaverse.

I actually feel that'ssuch a cool opportunity

for us to explore,

helping people have spaceand create space for learning

and practicing new skills

that might actuallyincrease things like empathy

and not just some of the practical skills,

what exact words come outta my mouth,

but also some of the developmental

and kind of emotional intelligence skills,

associated it with things empathy.

So I know both of you are indifferent generations to me.

And so both of you probablyhave a lot more experience

with the metaverse andunderstanding some of the dynamics

than I do. So I'm justgonna hand off here,

but I'd love to know your ideas

about how we could use this differently.

- Oh, it's so exciting.

Especially because with the metaverse

it's opening up the opportunity for us

to have experiences indifferent identities.

And a lot of our knowledge and backgrounds

comes from our lived experience.

And the thing about thethis new digital world

is that people will beable to step outside

of that identity in some capacity

and maybe get a different experience

it would have otherwise.

And it's coming at us so, so quickly,

one thing about our generation

is that we've kind ofbeen meta for a while.

We've been in this world.

We all started off on ClubPenguin and Webkinz and-

- Wait, wait, wait, what's Club Penguin?

- So you buy a stuffed animal

and it's aimed for children.

So I think age is eight through 12.

- [DeEtta] Oh, oh.

- And then it has a code on it.

You go online, you put the code in

and it gives you a penguin.

- This is like early two:

- Yeah, early:

You live with this penguin.

You build its house, you play games.

I had friends I hadnever met in real life.

- All over the globe.- All over the globe.

- They are Club Penguin fans.

- Yeah, and that was the firstsort of global experience

I think I had, because you're talking

to literally other childrenfrom around the world

who are on web or Club Penguin.

- [DeEtta] And they'reall dressed penguins?

- Penguins, yeah.

- [DeEtta] Really?

- Yeah.

- Okay, so cognitively, didthat have any impact on,

well, I don't know,cognitively is the right word,

but did that the impact,

you being dressed a penguinand all these other penguins,

did it free you up

to be a little bit moreexpressive or something?

- I will say this,

I remember talking to one of my friends,

we'd have hangouts and meetups

and realizing in one of our conversations,

it was the first time it hit me like, oh,

this friend who, I don'tknow what they look,

they don't know that I'mblack, they don't know that.

And that was really interesting

because now you're engagingwith people on such a new level.

I didn't know what theiridentity was either

now there's hints and indicators

and you can kind ofstart to guess culture.

But yeah, I remember thatwas really exciting to me.

- Interesting.- Yeah.

- Especially growing up I went

to a predominantly white school.

So I was always hyper aware of I'm black.

But on this onlinesphere, I was a penguin.

I was a blue one and thatwas the way I navigated.

And it opens up like, your way of learning

and receiving things isdifferent when there's not again,

that tied identity piece there right away.

- Interesting.

- And I think that's justsomething social media

and technology has donetotally for our generation

is you're interacting alot of times without seeing

who that person is.

And so I think there's benefitsand negativities to that,

but I think a huge part of that

is understanding different cultures,

having a more global view

and better understandingothers' identities.

- Yeah, and I think youhit a good point about,

okay, we want in real life,

we strive to build safe spaces.

So people can feel freeto share those experience,

have those hard conversations.

But something that onlinethat digital world does

is it enables brave spacesand we see it all the time.

People are maybe alittle too brave online.

- [DeEtta] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- But it really does kind of bring out

that's a very different feeling.

You feel brave enough 'cause you have that

not only part of identitiesnecessarily hidden,

but it just,

I don't know somethingabout it enables people

to share more freely and Ithink that's why our generation,

we address these confrontational

or controversial topics really head on.

And it's 'cause we grewup in that brave space.

- [DeEtta] Wow.

- And enabled us in a way

that online presencefrom such a young age.

- And I think it gives you a voice

where you wouldn't normallynecessarily in the real world.

In the metaverse it's like I can have

the same voice as the white CEO, right?

It's just very interestingbecause I can't,

or haven't had thatexperience in the real world.

And so I think it createsa full different view

of the EDI space.

- Yeah.

- So that's interestingto think about that

because earlier, when you said, Lexi,

there's positive and potentiallynegative implications,

I started going to some of the negatives,

we really want peopleto be able to be seen

and to show up as their full selves.

And so to create spaces where people

are not necessarily hiding,

but their full selves are not available

and where we are practicing,

kind of navigating all those identities

could potentially make us less equipped

to actually do it in the real world.

On the other hand, whatyou just said about,

the equity piece is really interesting

to think about people whohave maybe felt marginalized

or felt they haven't had voice in the past

or felt the power differentialhas been too inequitable

to actually show up in the same way

as they might in thismetaverse is really cool.

So for people to actually practice,

develop their voice

so that they can then transfer it back out

potentially into a real world scenario.

- I think, and that's a really good point.

I have a friend and he's a white male

and we have really great conversations,

but it took us a few yearsbefore he could comfortably feel

like we could engage inthose type of conversations.

And I asked him before, you had me,

your black friend and talkto, how did you learn?

And he said, he alwaysfelt better going online

because he's like in that online space,

I have the freedom to ask those questions.

I can look as dumb oruninformed as I want,

but I'm learning much moreopenly because, it's that-

- [Lexi] Ask those questions.

- Yeah, he's in the real world,

I can't necessarily just-

- [Lexi] Or you don't know how to.

- Yeah, I dunno how to, Idon't feel comfortable to,

I don't wanna come off wrong

versus it's a much more direct weight.

And I think that's an exciting thing

again about where we're going.

- It's interesting, over the years,

many, many times I've talked to people

who I would describe as kindof individual contributors,

not necessarily people whoare managers of people.

And I've said if there was one thing

that you could have moreof from your manager,

that your manager has theability to provide more of

in order to make your worklife happier, more engaging,

more fulfilling, what would it be?

And the top two, like20 years at this point

is feedback and then empathy.

And it's really interesting

to think about how either of those

can be really developed andpracticed in the metaverse.

That empathy piece wherepeople are actually saying,

how do I have a case study

where I'm negotiating sayingthis word versus that word,

but also maybe even wearingthe skin of someone else,

to actually say, thisis what it feels like.

It's not gonna be authentic.

It's not gonna be deep,it's not gonna be the same.

It's like having to walk inmy shoes every single day.

But at the same time to beable to just have a glimpse

of what it feels to be perceived,

as a person who doesn't have as much power

as I might in the real world,

or as a person who's a different color

or a person who's a different gender.

Or whatever it is so thatI at least have the ability

to start developing some of that empathy

that I might not ever or have access to

and then layering in the opportunity

to practice that skill development.

- And that concept isalready proven to work.

We have shows like, "Love is Blind."

- Exactly.

- Where they don't see each other,

we have shows where they take CEOs

and take away their identities

and drop them in thecompanies as a level employee.

And all of that is basedoff the idea of like,

how can we build theempathy while taking away

piece of that identitythat would keep them

from having that connection.

Enabling that kind of learning.

So it is exciting thepossibilities it'll open up,

but we also have to think about too,

there's gonna be downsize at the same time

and how to balance that out.

And that's where the conversations

are really opening up and moving.

And that's where we at DJA

are kind of starting to lookat and really think about.

- So I'm so excited about this.

Just a few weeks ago Iwas at south by southwest

and I just was surrounded

by so many ridiculously interesting people

and ideas and concepts.

And I realized, oh my goodness,

there's this whole world

that exist where people arereally deep into the pool,

figuring out how is it that we create

the kind of systems that we actually want

and how interesting it wasto even talk about Web3.

And that Web3 is not just,

thinking about creating a moreengaging version of the web

that we're all familiar with,

which is probably what

is the more institutionallydriven version of Web3.

But this other more purestform that's also simultaneously

being pursued and built out right now

that's really about creating a model

that is purely decentralized

that really reflects the kind of shared

and equitable accessthat we want in the world

and creating the space for that to exist.

It's really complicatedbecause we also have,

at the same time,

these big institutions thatare kind of doing what they do

in the same way that they doit and for the same reasons,

data mining and monetization,et cetera, et cetera.

But it's also really a huge opportunity

for us to have this experimental

and hopefully sustainable kind of space

where we really are able to start creating

some of those decentralized, equitable,

shared ownership spaces inthe metaverse and beyond

that will then have positive implications

for, or the real world.

- Right. Yeah.

And I think that's aquestion you get all the time

is what does that look like.

- [DeEtta] Exactly.- And how do you get there,

which is very hard toreplicate in the real world

where there are systems thatjust aren't created for that.

That's just not how the world was set up.

And so I think that's a reallycool way in the metaverse

to recreate that and seehow it would be structured,

what it would look like,

how people would communicatewith one another.

I'm gonna go back to our body reference.

It's clearly in the DNA.

- Right.- Right, right.

- It's clearly in the DNA.

So, we haven't seen that before.

We haven't seen a body

where it's born out ofthese amazing principles

of equity and inclusion andcollaboration and innovation.

So I think that's where

a lot of that excitement lives, yeah.

- And global.

- Right, right.

And that's the thing that's like,

even more exciting is thatwe don't just have kind of

our own us basedhistorical kind of context

that's driving the definition of equity,

we have everyone from all over the world

and all of the different histories

and traditions and stories

and understandings of what

equity, diversity and inclusion look like,

because all over theworld, this topic is real,

especially equity, not a US thing.

The way that we do it in theUS is very particular to us

based on our history,et cetera, et cetera,

but all over the world,we care about equity.

And so if all of us cancome together and say,

what would equity look like?

And what can it look like,

if we were going toapproach it differently

as literally kind of a human race,

how am I we build that.

That's really, really exciting.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, even if you look at theway they've structured money

and cryptocurrency, doesn'tbelong our physical money

to like, this country and this nation,

those borders aren't there.

- Right, right.

And so it's also, again,

creating more access to people

who wouldn't have typicallyhave access to banking systems.

To loans and mortgages

to some of the traditional lending venues

and also people who have beensignificantly disadvantaged

by not having access to some

of those big institutions like women

or unmarried women, right?

Or people who are single parents

who kind of the layers of disadvantage

are so significant andget steeper and steeper,

especially in certain parts of the world

that to have these spaces

and to have these things cryptocurrency

and all these different ways

in which we're reallyreconceptualizing equity

from the ground levelup is really exciting.

For us, I think that the huge opportunity

is to think about asthese different models

are being pursued and built,

how is it that we create opportunities

for the people who we work with

to start developing their own skills

and knowing that this isgonna be a long journey.

But getting people more familiar with

and comfortable evenexploring the possibility

of doing something thatmight be a learning

and development experience in a metaverse

and then thinking abouthow that translates

into developmental skillsthat are demonstrable

in their real work,

or that are having impacton their own advancement

or their own performance

or their own 360 degreereevaluations from their team.

If we can start creatingmore and more those spaces

for people to practicebeing brave together,

and then that translates out

into real world positive benefits,

that's the space I think

we're sitting in right this moment.

- Yeah, it is the space.

Again, it's always transformingand growing and evolving,

but it's interesting to see that

because this new take onthe digital virtual world,

we're looking at identity

so much more differently now as well.

we're starting to talk about,

like not identity asinto this physical body

and my skin or my culture,

but in the ways that we literally think

in the ways that ourbrains and minds function

in the thoughts that we have,

that is something that'sbeen relatively untouched

or unexplored in past EDI conversations

about those practitioners.

Again, it's open in the door, ableism,

all of that is becoming a muchhigher focus and emphasis.

- Yep, yep, yep.

Also it's gonna mean that those of us

who have been kind of programmed

to think I'm a right brain person,

or left brain personare gonna have to really

get out of that really binary way

of thinking about ourselfand even where we are

on our own learning curve

and think of ourself askind of starting over

and constantly investing

and also having a muchmore holistic approach.

- [Jayla] Yeah.

- Okay, folks, so we need to wind down.

I'm so excited by this kind conversation

and excited about all thethings that are coming next.

But to kind of wind down this episode,

I would love for you to maybe share,

what are the things thatyou personally look for

in next generation leaders

and next generation EDI opportunities?

- Yeah, for me, I think it's something

that we've talked about quite a bit,

is that bravery, tothink outside of the box,

especially in the corporate world

where it has been socontained for so long.

And I think in the EDI space,

you have to learn to be brave

and speak out and look atthe world in a different way

from how you were raised.

Because things are changing so rapidly,

even as we've talked from when we grew up

to when you grew up and it'sonly getting faster, right?

And so I think that'sthe biggest thing for me

is someone who is willing to do the work

and is willing to thinkoutside of the binary

of black, white, or female,male, that sort of thing.

- [DeEtta] Love it, thank you.

- That was a really good answer.

(all laughing)

I wanna settle on the word bold

because to be able to say like,

I wanna step out of this body,

which has been functioningand into a new body,

a new DNA that works betterfor everybody is a bold choice

and it takes bold leaders to admit that

and be willing to pursue that

it's an endeavor.

So that's the first thingI look for in companies

that will boldly tell you,organizations, leaders,

this is where we've been.

These are our problems andhere is how we wanna change it,

but have truly invested in that.

To me, that is a next generational leader.

Yeah, we gotta recognizethe past of the past,

we all were living in thesesystems in this old body,

but moving over here and doing it

and the most, what is it?

Aim for aspiration kind of way.

- [DeEtta] Love it.

Aspiration, that's the word.

- I love it, absolutely.

With that said, Jayla,

you should just go ahead andlead us all out. (laughing)

- All right, everyone.

Thanks for joining us forthis episode of "CultureRoad."

And if you liked this conversation,

join us for the next episode

as we talk about theburn it down perception,

burn it down culture.

It's gonna be a hot conversation.

(all laughing)

And we'll see you soon.

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About the Podcast

Learn from diverse experts in cutting conversations of today all through the lens of culture, inclusion, and anti-oppression.